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Hello guys,I'm probably starting with the left foot here.
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Is the following video of the world silat championship a realistic view of the way a silat fighter fights?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR7V54EBkykWhat about this one from a Pencak Silat championship:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAo8gQcYGUg
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There are a few techniques shown that may be of value, but “silat” is not “KunTao Silat;” and the silat shown here is “modern” and more like all the watered down versions of martial arts which assume that there are “rules” to combat and seek to limit what a practitioner may decide is applicable depending upon the circumstances in that moment of combat chaos. American KunTao Silat focuses on the pre-WWII pukulan pentjak styles of silat that are combative in nature and do not lend themselves to public demonstrations or tournament competition where EMT personnel and ambulance are not on-scene in sufficient quantities. KunTao Silat proves itself to each practitioner in their own life experience. Putting a martial art in the ring or a cage, or an amphitheater castrates the art by placing artificial boundaries on technical applications that may be appropriate in a court of mortal combat where not so in a more ordered and specific environment. . . one you might consider "empirical."
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American KunTao Silat focuses on the pre-WWII pukulan pentjak styles of silat that are combative in nature and do not lend themselves to public demonstrations or tournament competition where EMT personnel and ambulance are not on-scene in sufficient quantities.
Is sparring a part of AKTS?
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Yes, an integral part.
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Art,I've taken a look at the videos. But that is not what I would call sparring because the "opponent" is not really trying to resist but playing along with the motions. As you said, "play" is the more appropriate word.Do you practice something more intense, akin the following example of sparring with blades(in this case swords):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r7VWIQCHvMNotice that they are wearing protective clothing so no one needs to get hurt while still engaging in a very realistic training.
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I think you've missed something.
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It's pretty obvious that you have never encountered a KunTao Silat player; you'd understand.
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:'( Sorry Roland, not that I'm aware of.
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I've started another topic asking for good videos on silat, that maybe would help me get a better idea about it:http://kuntaosilat.org/forum/index.php?topic=215.0
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Roland, if I may give my perspective, let me add some additional comments based on my Silat Serak background, and testing it in the Dog Brothers match and against some MMA folks. And please let me state that I do not speak for the AKS group or organization. There are many folks here far more experienced than my meager skills or experience. I am only speaking from my personal experience on why I think AKS is a good system/style.1) First, we must identify the opponent or scenario we envision. We all unconsciously assume a certain type of fight. Are we going against a wildly untrained, smaller, weaker opponent (something MANY arts actually do)? Are we going against a trained foe? If so, trained in what (this requires certain understanding as well which can impact strategy, distancing, etc)? Multiple opponent scenario? Bladed? Blunt weapon? Gun? The number of scenarios and how the fight proceeds changes how we train an art (i.e.: is he squared up with me and about to throw a punch? Or am I seated and tackled from behind?) It sounds like you're trying to identify a GOOD art to pick against other arts out there. So let's make this honest. Odds of running into a Wing Chun Kung Fu master, or a White Eye Brow sifu, trolling the bars, looking for a fight are VERY slim. But someone well versed in grappling, or MMA wearing a TapOut t-shirt, that's young and fit, and looking to prove himself? Those odds are higher. That's the kind of threat that would be most plausible, in terms of a martial artist looking to pick a fight. If you disagree, please let me know.2) Next it comes to training. If you train Kuntao Silat for an hour a week, and they're doing MMA 3-5 hours a week, and have many more months of training under their belt? Well, Kuntao Silat is a bladed system. That's an advantage, weapons understanding. Its not to be underestimated. But what about empty-hand versus empty-hand? I don't think that's a logical bet if they have so much more training.3) What about (in this fictitious fighter), someone who's trained equally in their respective styles. Here's my opinion. Kuntao Silat versus Muay Thai, Boxing, Kickboxing, Stand-Up - You have more skillsets. Period. Just like a kick boxer would usually beat a boxer, and an MMA guy will usually beat a kick boxer, you have more skills. Aside from the normal range of kickboxing skills (kicks, elbows, knees, punches), cheap shots (throat tears, eye gouges, liver shot), sweeps (bisets, kinjits, sapus), single leg takedown or ankle picks (all those low Kuntao Silat stances work VERY well for this, but have a different flavor)...you just plain out-gun the fellow. You further have an advantage in form...everyone has seen boxing/kickboxing and know the responses. Few have seen Kuntao Silat. 4) MMA Fighter (this will concern itself with the clinch range) - MMA folks tend to fight a lot more "squared up" than strikers. This makes it harder (but not impossible) to do our typical sapus/kinjits/bisets. If they wrap you up in the Muay Thai plum, depending on their skill level, this leaves (at the low level) eye and groin exposed momentarily. At the high level (which works on the low level), the upward elbow (I won't go into details on the particulars yet, but I guarantee it works from personal experience) is an easy escape which leads into some very good follow-ups. What about double underhooks? That's easy. Their hands are around your torso. Your hands are free and their eyes, ears, and throat are wide-open. You still may get slammed (protect your head), but you'll either extract your pound of flesh and be able to leave (again, if your head was protected and not slammed), or in MOST CASES, they immediately drop you because they see their vulnerability. At this point, they're scared to clinch up.5) Wrestler (single leg takedowns, etc) - This requires them to reach a point at which their center of gravity is lower than yours. Adequate distancing and understanding of body cues to watch for will allow you to drop your center in plenty of time. If they're outside of punching range, they're too far to close the gap without giving you adequate time to drop your center. They also rely on punching to cause you to raise your defenses up high...then they shoot in. If you KNOW they're outside of punching range, their punches don't necessitate defense. When they shoot in, and you lower your center, they'll essentially be unable to lift you adequately, and it takes a second to process that. Which leaves more than adequate time for you to retaliate.6) The Grappler - Most grapplers have terrible stand-up and takedown skills. Usually this is not an issue. But let's say you had an off-day, they took you down, and now you're on the ground. First, they're more accustomed to this range than you, so if you take a cheap shot and are unable to perform, things will go bad. They have more ability to counter and retaliate with a cheap shot of their own than you. Its sorta like letting them know "Hey, this is okay to do...". It switches that on, and the adrenal response will have them want to inflict similar results. First is AKS and Serak have a great defense against the rear-naked choke. So knowing this, that isn't as much of an issue. But the Americana, arm bar, and other high percentage moves are still a danger. Being in their guard isn't an issue, as you can still strike the head or groin. Triangle, likewise, allows head stomps, groin attacks, and what a Bagua instructor who did a lot of Shiao Jiao called "Breaking their Chi" (sticking your thumb up their bum)...which immediately loosens virtually any hold [no joke, and don't laugh, we're talking a real fight]. First priority is to obtain top position (assuming you have never cross-trained or did any other arts). From there, sensitivity training (if practiced correctly) will allow you to keep your center over theirs. At this point, attacks can be done with higher probability. I won't go into specifics on a public forum as I don't want to give away my game to any BJJ folks, but it works quite well.This doesn't even go into the foot traps, knee-knocks, and many other skillets you learn with AKS. And all of this is explained from the perspective of having no EDC (every day carry) and no weapons around (empty beer bottle, pen, etc). Now let me say that its still a practitioner that makes the art. And there are PLENTY of grapplers and MMA folks that can clean my clock. But guess what? If I took grappling and MMA, there'd still be plenty of grapplers and MMA folks that can clean my clock. Honestly, you could do a lot worse than AKS, but you it would be very hard to do a lot better.All my best,John
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Hi John,thanks for your answer. Regarding the matchup I was envisioning: think unarmed, someone who has trained one year in Muay Thai vs someone who has trained one year in AKTS. Actually I would rather make it more scientific and say take 100 people, make 50 train one year in Muay Thai and 50 train one year in AKTS then match them up. Which group would win most of the fights? It's called statistics.What I learned from practicing and studying martial arts is that a lot of things that look good and have a good line of reasoning behind them don't actually work when put to the test. I used to do Wing-Tsun and they focus on chain punches. But I have never seen chain punches being used effectively in a match(boxing, Muay Thai or MMA). And honestly I don't think they are effective, so in the matchup above I think chain punches would lose to boxing.For example you mentioned the sweeps: (bisets, kinjits, sapus). I have taken a look at the sapu for example and I have a hard time imagining it to work from a mechanical standpoint in an actual fight. But again, this has to be tested empirically.
Bagua instructor who did a lot of Shiao Jiao called "Breaking their Chi" (sticking your thumb up their bum)...which immediately loosens virtually any hold [no joke, and don't laugh, we're talking a real fight].
Did your Bagua instructor ever test this? Why would it loosen any hold?
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Hi Roland,The fifty best fighters would win,regardless of style or system.If you want to compete in the ring,train in a ring sport.If you want to defend yourself choose a more self defence oriented art.Try both,try one against the other.The only way to see what works for you is to go do it.If you train hard,you'll do well regardless of what you do.Cheers,Nelson
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Roland, let me try to shoot this out before work real quick. And to the board, please forgive my frequent references to Wing Chun and MMA (as I realize that's not the focus of these boards), but its useful to specifically address certain points.1) The chain punch HAS been effectively used in the UFC. Go to youtube and search "chain punch ufc". Its a 6 second clip. The guy (Vitor Belfort) fought out of the Carlos Gracie camp but was reknown for his "fast hands" in early UFC. In this particular clip (which has no audio), you would normally hear Joe Rogan screaming "He Wing Chunned him! He Wing Chunned him!!!" Although I doubt he used Wing Chun, the fast, sequential punches he used were manifest as chain punching.2) The chain punch is taught as part of Vunak's "RAT" program, which has been tought to Navy Seals and other law enforcement agencies.---Now this isn't a website trying to sell Wing Chun or the Chain Punch. But this is an EXAMPLE of using the RIGHT tool at the RIGHT time.Lyoto Machida has used Karate's versions of bisets and kinjits in various UFC's, which shows their effecacy in an MMA environment.Sapu's have been used successfully by folks like Burton Richardson in Dog Brother matches. But here's a tip...what's a sapu without the little leg lift? A Muay Thai roundhouse. Its the same muscles and musculature. What you see done in demos and tapes is the "soft" version to facilitate training. In a real fight, even if I don't get the leg lift at the end, I still just Muay Thai'ed the guy's leg... This doesn't even address what happens if you change angles or targets. And for the record, I have successfully used this (as a full sweep) sparring against MMA folks.The thumb? Its been used extensively in matches. Its unexpected and known as dirty fighting (pun not intended). Its also (with a stick) supposedly a way to get a pit bull to momentarily release its jaw clamp on you. Your argument about Muay Thai versus Kuntao Silat is too vague. Are they mutually training for a known bought? What are the rules? Is this a street fight? Are they training the same amount of time (including physical conditioning)? Were they in the same physical conditioning when they started? Are weapons allowed? Is this a random streetfight where improvised weapons are accessible? The "delta" factor you're looking at here is "training methods". Who is training to win the fight, within the rule-set? This is why I said everyone envisions a different fight. Depending on what you envision a fight to be, you gravitate towards the art that trains against that fight. This is why I investigated the MMA gym. They use Muay Thai and Boxing as a standup. I trained against it. In a real fight, I feel reasonably confident. In the ring, honestly I don't put in the time they do, so their cardio and the rule-set work against me. But again, this is why training is key. There's a reason why some gyms are more presitigious than other gyms, even if they train in the same art. Training method. At the end of the day, all I can say is this. AKS will give you weapons for "dirty boxing". It'll give you a wider array of strikes (kicks, knees, elbows, punches...). It'll give you level changes and the ability to do high percentage moves like single/double leg takedowns and ankle picks, with appropriate striking distractions. This is all without bringing the "flavor" into it, which adds a whole other layer of deceptive tactics (non-standard fight postures take away reactive clues, such as expecting an uppercut by bodyweight shift is completely negated if you're using different body cues to strike in a different manner). Furthermore, you're learning weapons with this art, and how to leverage the "internal" power base which gives you significantly more power in your strikes. My suspicion is that you're already sold on combat sports. Nothing wrong with that. But I've done my own, personal empiracal analysis in order to train against threats I feel are legitmately possible, and I believe that the arts of the Indonesian archipeligo meet my needs. Further, these arts give me a path forward for when I grow old. When I'm 80, I'll still be able to enjoy what these arts have to offer. I may not be able to do a crocadile kick (ala Muay Thai) at 80, but I will have a cane, and my weapons training. These arts will grow with me, and (as they say here) offer me a martial lifestyle that will yield great dividends over the course of my life.Aside from casual training, I've used these arts to stop the "drunken tackle" by folks who wanted to take me down. I managed to stop them without hurting them, give them a big grin and smile, and let them walk away with their pride intact without escalating the situation, but also without having to lose anything on my side. I've taught the brother art of this to multiple people in the military, including one Marine who fought in Iraq who said "This is better than anything I learned in Boot Camp!". I've taught this to several people who were experienced fighters, including an amateur Muay Thai fighter from Israel who really liked it, as well as folks in law enforcement who were blown away by its efficiency. These are people who have FOUGHT, in real-life scenarios, who (based on their experience) felt it was indispensible to learn.Something else to think about... As you get older, your understanding of the arts will change (not a slam...this happens to everyone). You'll gravitate towards different ideas, concepts, strategies, and tactics. This is another reason I love AKS. It is flexible and scalable to that end. Do I want to focus on the striking aspect? Fine. How about weapons? Fine. How about the sprawl-and-brawl or ground-and-pound strategy used in MMA? Sure. Because it is conceptually based, using gross motor movements to convey multiple meanings, the art works well in a variety of situations. Let me steal a quote from Keith Kernschpect's book "On Single Combat" (and
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Let me take a moment to put an addendum to what I said.My purpose in the last reply was to draw parallel's between arts that you've mentioned, and AKS. Please understand that what I said was true, but it really...waters down a lot of what AKS can offer. A sapu is far more than a Muay Thai kick with an added technique at the end. The target and intentions are different. But I'm trying to find uniform ground with which we can discuss these things. Further, the musculature, while HIGHLY similar, is subtly different as well, which are in line with its intentions as a blade aware art. My attempt to oversimplyify some things to put forth a mainstream explanation, using commonly understood vernacular, may have been too dismissive of the minitua for those who actually practice the art.AKS has its own flavor, but in order to share the recipe, I"ve stripped out the less common ingrediants to make a "mainstream" version, so people understand it better. My bad.It is far more than the sum of its parts. Now please note, I do not say this lightly. I started in martial arts back in '93. I have had some amazing teachers. But my focus has always been, what arts will allow me to work against an opponent in a streetfight, who is bigger, stronger, and has some skills as well? What will allow me to escape safely? Which arts yield the biggest return for time invested? The answer always comes back to the arts of South East Asia and internal mechanics (fajing, listening energy, etc). AKS provides a very and useful presentation of this, and alot more as well. Anyway, sorry for the additional post, but I felt some clarification was necessary as my previous was done in haste.Whatever you choose, I wish you the best of luck. But again, I'd like to stress that the price of the DLP is hard to beat. John
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Hi folks,sorry for the delay, I've been very busy the last weeks. So I think this thread has some valuable input and at the end it is just by actually practicing an art
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Absolutely Roland. Great to see you join. I applaud your investigative mindset in reviewing combat sports as an idea of studying validity in the heat of combat. That's a very important factor in finding out what works. Hate to beat a dead horse, but… <--which means I'm gonna beat a dead horse... whereas MMA works as a great filter in isolating and discarding unrealistic techniques, it also has to do the same with deadly/”non-sportive” techniques. “Small joint manipulation” (finger breaks) would eliminate a lot of holds. So would high percentage moves that would severely injure a person (temple strikes, throat strikes, etc). If you walk into a fight and think “jab and punch, jab and punch”, that's what you're going to do. Likewise if you walk into a fight thinking “Eye gouge, throat tear, nut shots”…well…that's a very different mindset that doesn't work in a sportsman arena. The key to weaponizing those capabilities is exemplified in the Maha Guru Gartin videos on Partner Practice. This is a very key step that's missing in a lot of systems. They don't escalate the difficulty between training partners… it goes directly from “he punches and freezes while I retailiate with my laundry list of techniques” directly to sparring. Maha Guru Gartin provides an integral middle-ground that affords the ability to practice “serious” techniques without the negative consequences, and where everyone can still shake hands and be friends. Being able to deploy ALL your weapons during practice allows you to keep them fresh in your mind when the adrenal dump kicks in. Eliminating them means they are no longer your “go-to” mechanisms when the *@#*&@# hits the fan. John
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This line of conversation rarely, if ever bears fruit. My senior students routinely test their art against others. WE always have the respect and admiration of combat sport players. The simple fact is KunTao Silat is fundamentally different. It fulfills the promise of martial arts better than virtually any art I have ever seen (I’ve been training MA since 1979, both Traditional and Combat Sports). If you pay attention to what is being taught AND stick to it closely, you get results right out of the box, no assembly required.
My students include one of the top Muay Thai Arjarns in the USA, Pro boxers and former BJJ/MMA types. There was never any debate about it’s relative value once they tried it out.
Now, the problem here is popular opinion is against so-called traditional arts. And frankly, the competitive grappling scene has done a much better job of providing solid education to their audience than most traditionalist schools have. But I would argue that KTS is no ordinary school.
Take two people – one less talented for fighting, and one pro fighter. Give the less talented guy KTS and I’ll put money on it that he will beat the pro fighter. I’ve seen it time and again. (Of course, ridiculous extremes are not the consideration here.)
And Tim is certainly correct – MMA keeps evolving due to what happens in the ring. I’ll take it a step farther – if you base your street survival on ring consensus – you are living in the past and will get whupped. And I’m not alone in that assessment. My friends in the Muay Thai and MMA world voice the same concerns.
So when you choose your method of training, look to find the right tool for the job. Not the consensus decision.
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