Is KunTao Silat the right art for me?

[Steve]

An Email Exchange posted with permission:
Good day Michael,
—————————————————————————–
Yes Sir.
And I thank you and Joe for all the guidance.
Sounds like AKS would be the better choice for me.
I think if I upturn a pickle bucket I should have no problems with the low horse stance.
😉
I’ll get to clicking and spending a bit later.

Have a great day!
Mike

From: Michael
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 7:53 AM
To: Pak Steve
Subject: Re: Form Submission from KunTaoSilat.com

Pak Steve,
I see there are two video download courses for KunTao Silat.
One is American KunTao Silat download for $120.00.
The other is KunTao Silat Guru Course Download for $150.00.
The AKTS lists the following videos: $120.00
American Basics
American System
Internal/External
Basic Applications
Personal Training
Partner Training
Introduction
Bonus Video

The Guru Course I find the listing: $150.00
Introduction to the Guru Certification Course
American KunTao Silat System
Malabar Basic Training
Steve on Application of Basics
Djurus Satu with Applications
Malabar KunTao Silat Forms
Serak with Applications & Battle Djurus
Internal/External Forms
Personal Practice
Partner Training

1) I used a bold font on the videos that I am guessing are not common to each other. Am I correct?

Yes.

2) Could you explain the differences in the programs.
From my research it appears that the KTS system removes much of the low fighting and possibly techniques that are better suited to the young or very flexible.
Spot on, yes. The AKTS system does that, although the low horse stance works very well for ground fighting while standing.

3) Would I be correct that the KTS program is not a Guru program in itself and is practitioner level only?
The major distinction between the Distance Learning Program and Guru Certification is in conducting a practice group and testing applications in addition to the forms and solo exercises at each level.

4) Also, does either system require many high kicks.
Yes, Malabar.
I never kick higher that my arm pit and thats just for mobility.
In application I prefer abdominal height or lower for kicking, with groin or below where I feel sufficiently skilled to pull it off effectively.
American style uses shins & knees to the legs as kicks and placement openings for stancework.

Or at least as effectively as anything else I might have in my tool box.

Thanks so much!
Mike

Appears to me that you’ve narrowed it down to the American program.

Let me know if questions remain,
Have a blessed & inspired day,
Steve

On Mar 6, 2016, at 8:16 AM, Pak Steve wrote:

He is a member of our KTS Forum, but he won’t post anything since People can
respond. :-(>

Joe,
Thank you again for your time and consideration.
I have no doubt you’re a lot more knowledgeable and have a lot more first-hand experience with this than I do.

I also understand there is no way to ‘unload’ a question like how much is adequate training for the average man.
Too many variables to count.

But I’m sure all other things being equal having a system that works with your natural body mechanics is an absolute advantage.

That and the fact that Pak Steve gets me grinning is worth the price of admission.

Thanks again for your time and insight.

Michael (from my iPhone)

Hi Michael, just a few thoughts.

Quoting Michael>:

> Joe,
> Which you say makes good sense it’s just that I think sporting versus
> life-threatening situations may be a tad different.

Reply: Psycho-physiologically, there is no difference. The type of
stress does not matter, merely how you’ve trained to manage it.

> Like when you hear somebody you know died and it’s kind of ‘oh well
> that really is horrible. What do you want to do for lunch?’

> But if it’s somebody you very much love when you hear about it
> you’re blood blood runs cold and you shut down.

REPLY: These are demonstrations of empathy, not adrenaline dump.

> It seems like theres been a lot of trained police who unload their
> gun and completely miss the target at 20 feet.
> The fear adrenaline seems to be what cancels out the fine motor skills.
> At least from the research I’ve done.
>
> Several years ago we had a police shootout here.
> Something like 100 shots were fired and nobody hit anything!
> The restaurant was ventilated quite well though.
>
> I guess in the end no one really knows how they will function until
> they’re in that situation.
> Some people come alive and some people freeze.
>
> Without a doubt though, I’m sure you’re right that those who train
> hard have a much greater advantage.

REPLY: Now you see. Look, there’s a great line in a Clint Eastwood
movie – “There is only trained and untrained. There is no tough” –
this is incredibly true. You train this art and make training a part
of your everyday life and actions, and you will be able to perform at
a high level, while under stress. One does not need to be limited to
‘gross motions’ or giving up clarity or focus. The myth of losing
advanced body skills while under stress is just that a myth. You
either train adequately to your need, or you don’t.

> Especially if they’re not doing battle with their natural inclinations.
> I’m sure the consistent training also gives you the ability to
> overcome fear in many situations where your confidence is greater
> than your fear.

REPLY You bet!

> I’m on the eastern side of Michigan just outside of Detroit.
>
> Again, thank you very much for your insights.
>
> Michael (from my iPhone)

Michael,
My best recommendation is to set aside all preconceptions and simply train the art. It offers things that are simply not knowable until you get down the rabbit hole, regardless of other arts practiced. It’s like describing red to a blind man.

As far as training, and the adrenaline dump, et al. If the adrenaline dump truly overcame hard training, there would be no ballerinas, no Olympic Wrestlers, Judokas or fencers. What we often see is people who do not simply put the time in or train properly. Now, the good thing about our KTS is that it opens up your natural movement and hidden powers of the body, so it is simply less difficult to actually use than something where you have to fight yourself.

Train!

Also, I do not know where you are in Michigan, but I have a senior student in Schererville Indiana. It may be very much worth your while to seek him out.

Quoting Michael>:

> Joe,
> That was exactly the kind of answer I was looking for.
> You were able to give constructive criticism on his art without ad
> hominem attacks.
> On top of that you were able to differentiated ‘your’ art and why you
> feel it is superior with clear examples.
> For that I thank you!
>
> When I mentioned that PCP, (Mr. Sanders art), is very organic that is
> because it is very flowing rather than jerky, like kempo for example.
> Not to blast kempo, its just what I call a hard style and does not
> suit my body well.
> In ju jitsu my sensi called me the eel because I slipped and slid out
> of everything.
> Everyone brought a whole lot more mass to the table than I ever did
> but I could out maneuver them.
> In daily life I don’t want to be on the ground any more than necessary
> as I don’t want to get stomped on by someones buddies.
>
> These things brought me to a more upright art.
> I do see the necessity for ground fighting skills, its just that I
> want that to be an in and out finishing position and not the fight, if
> I am making any sense at all.
> Also I wanted something that had a knife or short staff at the center
> and integrated into the art at its core as these weapons can be picked
> up almost anywhere, anytime, when necessary.
> Every time I go to the movies I seem to forget my sword, spear and bo
> staff, so while very cool to play with I’m not sure how practical they
> are for modern self defense.
> Being able to deter someone with a box of movie popcorn and a coffee
> cup seems more appropriate to my life style.
> As technician I always have a screwdriver in my car.
> Silat with a knife is almost the same as silat without a knife.
> This makes for more universal techniques and doesn’t require
> completely different attacks and defenses and I think that is a huge
> advantage over most other systems.
>
> A lot of my time is in places where my CPL does me no good.
> I’m more likely to shoot myself putting it in or pulling it out of the
> car lock box 20 times a day than ever getting in a fight.
> I thank Uncle Sam every time I am bent and twisted over the car seat
> in a school parking lot, trying to free the weapon from its holster
> and maneuver it into the lock box chained under the seat while not
> drawing any attention or having an accidental discharge severely
> limiting my chances of ever reproducing again.
> So glad we have the right to bear arms!
> This is why my gun(s) are at home lonely more often than not.
> Of lot of my work is in schools and such where a concealed pistol will
> get me an engagement with bubba faster than Fort Knox or the Federal
> Reserve can say , “Gold, what gold?”
>
> Sorry for the rant, my blood pressure spikes at times when I get on
> certain subjects.
> Back to why I am interrupting your day.
>
> Watching Pak Steve move is very natural, as you say, but also very skilled.
> Please don’t take this next statement offensively as it is meant as a
> complement.
> As I watched some of his videos he reminds me of this show I saw with
> a baboon mauling the piss out of some dumb ass who thought he could
> mess with the baboon!
>
> You see, this baboon had a natural level of ‘skill’ that was complexly
> organic.
> The fighting seemed as natural a part of his movement as walking.
> Believing that the water swims the fish as much as the fish swims in
> the water something percolated in my swamp of a mind.
>
> I began to think how human fighting styles are completely different
> then natural motion.
> Like a speed boat fighting the water to move rather than the fish
> letting the water swim IT simply by moving it’s body.
> When you watch videos of real street fights, ‘trained martial artists’
> end up in a chaotic brawl and the art seems to be abandoned.
> Why was this?
> Could it by that when the mind enters fear mode that it also enters a
> more primal than cerebral level?
> If so, was all my ‘scientific’ training going to evaporate when fear
> and adrenaline kicked in because that part of the mind was now closed?
> I know fine motor skills are reduced while under stress so my Ninja
> death touch might be for shit at such a time.
> (My Wing Chun training locks me up like Mr. Roboto in a Styx video
> then tells me — relax.) If my mind went into survival mode would my
> art switch off leaving me a 165 lb 5’8″ suburban guy against a
> practiced street thug?
> I began to realize it takes forever to ‘naturalize’ the art because
> you have to unlearn everything that nature has taught you.
> Hum, I suspected I was perhaps a fish being told to skip on top the
> waves and wondering why its so dammed hard to swim.
>
> While doing this, I was spending money year after year to learn
> something my body was resisting.
> No mater how I train it, when I slip on the ice I never revert to a
> Wing Chun stance to save my ass.
> Ju jitsu break falls do help though!
> Yet to avoid the fall I always fall back to my natural balancing ability.
> So I started searching for arts that looked like they meshed with
> natural, or what I have been calling organic motion.
> Out of the lot it seemed to me that your art and Mr. Sanders
> demonstrated the most natural flow.
>
> Being that I am the average working joe raising a 10 year old in the
> suburbs of Michigan my martial arts takes a back door to daily life.
> I am looking for a martial art which integrates in my life as much as
> possible.
> Training is a must but it should not be diametrically opposed to
> everything other motion I make.
> Never wanting to be a cage fighter and far to pretty to be a punching
> bag, I just want more skill to save my ass if and when I need to.
> The world is getting a whole lot more violent from where I stand and
> now the cowards are targeting old ladies for random beatings.
>
> Sorry for the long winded speech but I wanted to let you know where I
> am coming from to see if you think your art and the DLP would be
> beneficial to someone with my situation, attitude and desire.
>
> Please also note that I have omitted titles not to be disrespectful
> but I have noticed where titles seem a major point of contention among
> martial artists.
> I try to only use them when speaking directly to the bearer of the
> said title or if I know for sure that I will not be demoting or
> insulting anyone.
>
> Thank you so much for your time and consideration.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Mar 5, 2016, at 7:28 AM, joe@kuntaosilat.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Michael,
>> It’s a pleasure to meet you. I’ve never met William Sanders, but a
>> former student of his, who ranked as an instructor, but refused the
>> test because the black magic rituals conflicted with his Christian
>> faith. That and he did not want to drink the stale urine of
>> Indonesian masters. To hear that he is returning to to the true faith
>> is a wonderful thing.
>>
>> My friend was a follower of Pendekar Eddie Jaffri’s Pangian Langkah
>> Empat system, which is how he ended up in Sanders orbit. There was
>> some really neat stuff in the Pangian Langkah Empat and the Sundah
>> silat Sanders put into his teaching.
>>
>> The biggest difference between the two schools, is that what we talk
>> about as ‘natural’ and ‘free’ movement is very different from what
>> William Sanders describes. As best I can describe it is that he says
>> you are ‘free to move’ without restriction. Whereas we would look at
>> how he moves and say he is very restricted, because his movement is
>> constantly at war with himself – structurally he is in his own way.
>> So you will see a lot more different kinds of postures and positions
>> from his school than you would from ours.
>> I’m not laying a judgement down ere, I’m just saying that we look for
>> the effortless power and the freedom to move naturally that comes
>> from removing bad habits that put your body in opposition with itself
>> as opposed to being just ‘free.’ Freedom is not understood if you do
>> not understand where it comes from. My friend Sam, who I taught after
>> he went through Ssnders program was a very good, skilled player –
>> particuarly in Pangian Langkah Empat and Muay Boran. But his training
>> in PCP made it very, very difficult for him to ‘free’ himself from
>> contrived, unnatural movement.
>>
>> Now, thats our opinion, our doctrine, and we bet our lives on it.
>> Both Pak Steve and myself have extensive fight records, we tested our
>> training. Heck, all of my top students have as well. So, our opinion
>> is derived from experience as well as training. I’m confident your
>> other teacher will have his own doctrine and training. Just be aware
>> the the words used in Sanders school often have very different
>> meanings in our school.
>>
>> I hope this helps, and I do not want you to read this and take it as
>> a criticism. It is simply the observations I have made taking a
>> person of instructor grade, who had been through he PCP Silat program
>> as a student.
>>
>>
>> On 2016-03-04 19:05, Pak Steve wrote:
>>> Ha ha, you might want a t-shirt at some time in your KTS career.
>>> Joe works for a living, so sometimes he’s out-of-pocket. IIRC he knows
>>> Mr. Sanders and you can always trust Joe to have an opinion. :-)>
>>> ————————-
>>> FROM: Michael
>>> SENT: Friday, March 04, 2016 4:58 PM
>>> TO: Pak Steve
>>> SUBJECT: Re: Form Submission from KunTaoSilat.com
>>> That’s good to know.
>>> I was worried I’d have to buy a burka or a skirt.
>>> Just kiddin! 😉
>>> Look forward to hearing from Mr. Joe.
>>> Michael (from my iPhone)
>>> On Mar 4, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Pak Steve <steve@kuntaosilat.com> wrote:
>>> Yes, Michael ~ it’s like magic, blows my mind.
>>> Yes on the KTS Forum also. You’ll also have access to the Vimeo
>>> testing site where you can pick up a lot of tips from the test
>>> evaluations. If something has you stumped, you have my email address.
>>> Some People to train with would be desirable.
>>> My pleasure,
>>> Steve
>>> ————————-
>>> FROM: Michael
>>> SENT: Friday, March 04, 2016 12:58 PM
>>> TO: Pak Steve
>>> CC: joe
>>> SUBJECT: Re: Form Submission from KunTaoSilat.com [1]
>>> Pak Steve,
>>> Once again thank you.
>>> If I were to order the 150.00
>>> DLP do I then gain instant access to the complete set of videos?
>>> Is the forum the best place to receive answers to specific training
>>> questions?
>>> Other than the video course are their other tools necessary to train?
>>> Thanks again so much.
>>> Michael (from my iPhone)
>>> On Mar 4, 2016, at 10:29 AM, Pak Steve wrote:
>>> Good day Michael,
>>> Thanks for the information and background. I think I understand the
>>> question now.
>>> U. Un Surya’s impact on my system is probably the largest distinction
>>> you will find. His penchant for principle rather than rote technique
>>> made me realize that in practicing a martial lifestyle, application of
>>> principle must be a part of your daily life, just in order to get in
>>> enough training time. I call it ‘constant training’ and believe that
>>> this is the most effective way to train physical movement into
>>> instinct ~ the rest falls together in the joyful acceptance of combat.
>>> But between lies another ‘secret’ of KunTao Silat called ‘sticking
>>> hand/knife’ which provides reaction training with a partner that hones
>>> a practitioner’s response to attack and follow up to completion . . .
>>> neutralizing the threat.
>>> There’s several training tools that we use that are unique to my
>>> style; so that would surely be distinct.
>>> You’re correct about the primal aspect of my art, but the ‘kembaggan’
>>> or martial dance is another very critical training tool that yields
>>> fruit from early training to the finishing touches.
>>> The new American system includes a lot of elements familiar to Chinese
>>> martial art practitioners, but the overall attitude is one of health
>>> and vigour that produce power and focus in combat. So, I’d have to say
>>> U. Un Surya’s influence is a huge distinction there.
>>> My personal influence comes from the perspective of a life-long
>>> outdoorsman, intimate with guns & knives and difficult terrain. Which
>>> is what gives me such a case of the red-ass about what’s going on in
>>> our once-Great Nation! Glad to hear that you’re awake my friend.
>>> I got Joe copied in on this one, so I’d wager a nickel that he has
>>> something to say.
>>> A fine day to you,
>>> Steve
>>> ————————-
>>> FROM: Michael]
>>> SENT: Friday, March 04, 2016 7:30 AM
>>> TO: Pak Steve
>>> SUBJECT: Re: Form Submission from KunTaoSilat.com [1]
>>> Pak Steve,
>>> Thank you very much for the prompt and considered response.
>>> It’s very true that he does have an ‘esoteric’ side which seems a bit
>>> of an eclectic mixture of various systems.
>>> That being said I don’t think he really promotes that as he has
>>> returned to his Christian roots it now seems.
>>> What has attracted me to his physical system is it has an organic
>>> rather than mechanical feel to it.
>>> Also, it promotes health and flexibility and is suitable to those of
>>> us over 50 and of slight built.
>>> MMA is for the young, big bucks. :>
>>> As for myself I am looking for a system that is natural, effective and
>>> in tune with nature.
>>> Something that gets better with age and does not rely on ever
>>> increasing strength and dexterity.
>>> I’ve broken every dammed toe kicking and stomping and generally
>>> punishing myself.
>>> Arthritis is informing me that I need something more kind to my body
>>> for the next 50 years.
>>> Keeping moving and flexible is imperative now.
>>> Over the years I have dabbled in silat, ninjutsu, wing chun do and ju
>>> jitsu.
>>> I love to dabble as nothing yet has captured me except for
>>> experiencing things.
>>> Also I love the brotherhood and spirituality that can be found, yet
>>> that seems few and far between these days.
>>> Watching you do silat is like watching an viking orgasm of spontaneous
>>> destruction.
>>> Your fighting attitude is definitely primal yet controlled and
>>> directed.
>>> And you obviously love it and have fun!
>>> I also admit that based upon your videos you seem a kindred where
>>> spirit as concerns the direction our ‘leaders’ have taken.
>>> Politically correct martial arts hold no interest for me.
>>> In short, you have piqued my interest and I just wanted to get a
>>> better feel for what you feel distinguishes your art from other brands
>>> of silat.
>>> Thank you again,
>>> God bless.
>>> On Mar 4, 2016, at 7:32 AM, Pak Steve wrote:
>>> Good day Mike,
>>> Sounds like you’ve been doing some extensive research. It’s good to
>>> hear a positive side about William Sanders for a change.
>>> I haven’t had any contact with him since the early 1980’s so I don’t
>>> know much about him personally. Several of his students have come to
>>> me over the years, who like silat ~ but don’t buy into the voodoo
>>> rituals. So that’s about all I know.
>>> I’ll copy Sigung Joe Judt in because he is quite knowledgeable about
>>> other serak and silat systems and may very well have an opinion about
>>> Mr. Sanders.
>>> Happy thoughts,
>>> Steve
>>> ————————-
>>> FROM: KunTao Silat [mailto:wordpress@www.kuntaosilat.com]
>>> SENT: Thursday, March 03, 2016 12:08 PM
>>> TO: sigung@kuntaosilat.com
>>> SUBJECT: Form Submission from KunTaoSilat.com [1]
>>> NAME: Mike
>>> EMAIL: michaelcheney@???????.com
>>> MESSAGE: Hello,
>>> I have been watching some KunTao Silat videos and was interested in
>>> the DLC.
>>> Without getting into any denagrating I see quite a few similarities
>>> with the system taught by William Sanders.
>>> Not exactly the same, but similar.
>>> I also know that Mr. Sanders has long held a similar opinion to what
>>> you now hold towards the De Thouras, excepting that he says he was
>>> there when Paul ‘created’ his system at a kitchen table.
>>> He also had business arrangements with them in the past and also
>>> claims to have been lied to , robbed, denigrated,etc;.
>>> He calls PDT-Bakti Negara ‘Kitchen Table Silat.
>>> I had been at seminars with William, Paul and William Sanders and
>>> found all to be skilled. (at least as best I can tell).
>>> I have never met Victor.
>>> During email dialogs with Mr. Sanders and found him to be
>>> knowledgable, consistent and quite accessable.
>>> He also seems to have plenty of support from the actual Indonesian
>>> community and other indigenous Silat practitioners.
>>> Truth be told, the whole Silat scene seems to be a quagmire of
>>> politics and from my own inquiries it all seems to be traceable back
>>> to the De Thouras.
>>> I believe Steven Plinck once said that a ‘student of Silat who was not
>>> disowned by his teacher was doing something wrong’ or something to
>>> that effect.
>>> Then again, he is of the De Thouras clan and it appears that is a
>>> family tradition!
>>> When doing some inquiries several years past on Silat TV about various
>>> systems and why all the infighing I was pounced on by William De
>>> Thouras and his gang.
>>> I was trying to be respectful but asked how someone could receive rank
>>> and be call skilled then later be called a talentless baboon by the
>>> same teacher.
>>> This had to do with Mr Sanders who had once long ago been closely
>>> allied with the De Thouras, Paul and Victor as I understand, but
>>> William went on the attack.
>>> Nobody explained how a skilled practitioner could suddenly loose skill
>>> but they sure told me how disrespectful I was for asking such a
>>> question.
>>> The question earned me a barage of ignorant indignation and I
>>> concluded that William De Thouras and his ilk were all vile and shied
>>> away from anyone associated with him.
>>> Now that you seem to have broken from him as a person I am once again
>>> curious about your system
>>> Other than the alleged deceptions, I have no problem with a system
>>> lacking a direct lineage as long as the system works.
>>> The politics are very unfortunate as its the students that truly are
>>> being abused if they cannot trust their instructors.
>>> So all other things aside and trying to avoid to much infighting,
>>> could you tell me what distinguishes KunTao Silat from William Sanders
>>> version in terms of attitude, techniques and effectiveness.
>>> P.S. Keep up the good fight against those you know who’s in the
>>> government!
>>> Thank you for your time and consideration,
>>> Mike
>>> Time: March 3, 2016 at 12:07 pm

[Steve]

How can you train whilst working, or playing?

Train Smart: KunTao Silat’s constant training concept

[Author]

Posts