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Hello Everyone,Coming from a Wing Chun background I was interested to see that AKTS has Sticking Hands within its training curriculum as well. While AKTS seems more akin to Tai Chi's pushing hands than Wing chuns Chi Sau, the concept of dealing with an opponents energy is quite applicable. When I was Leung Tings Wing Tsun lineage one of the things which impressed me and made it easier to progress in a uniform or standardized fashion was the standardization of how they performed and trained Chi Sau. There were a total of seven (7) sections of Chi Sau and each one dealt with a different type of energy or attack and how to accept or counter. Since each section represented a specific way of handling the specific energy and the sensitivity needed one could concentrate on just that aspect. Of course the end goal was to react spontaneously and to break free of the sections, but that took time. Anyhow, what I am getting at is whether or not there is a standardized series of progressive methods taught for Sticking Hands within AKTS? While traditional Wing Chun does not have the sections of Chi Sau and can produce very good people, it seems a longer and more difficult road. Although the end result may be the same. If AKTS does not have a standardized approach, do you believe the program could benefit from such an approach or should one leave well enough alone and not worry about it?Your thoughts?
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Very well stated Dave,Yes, I think American KunTao Silat could benefit from any organized approach that can boast any modicum of success.
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Hi Art,I think I will have my hands full just trying to get the footwork down. As Derric noticed when we met, I tend to remain weighted 100% on my back leg. This is how we did it in Wing Tsun and while I have trained other lineages, I always seem to revert back to this under pressure. Of course, in my own defense, I did spend years and many hours training to do just that, rear weighted stepping. I have also forgot most of the sections, remember the goal was to make everything natural. Still, I do have my old notes and could probably do the first 3 or 4 without too much problem. On a side note, does AKTS have any drills similar to Hubub or De Cadenama (not sure of the spelling but it translates into something like "Chain of Hands")? I remember one of the things my Pekiti Tirsia guy and were doing was trying to incorporate the Wing Chun and the Kali drills into a single blended exercise. Very nice flow potential there. However, once I have a foundation within the AKTS I would be willing to try and work with my seniors to video and do something. Although, you may be better off without me
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;D Ah Dave, you are far too humble; but I guess you're in good company.
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Sigung always called “sticking hands” “play” and I think part of that is because a silat adept is called a “player” . . . but it may well be for other reasons as well.
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You have a witness there Brother!
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Hello,The traditional way of teaching was to train whatever Sifu felt like doing that particular day. As I mentioned before, this is fine provided you have access to train with Sifu and your seniors on a regular basis. But, what happens when you don't? The end goal always must be to react naturally and spontaneously, however how does one reach that level and how can it be done more quickly? Consider the whole school platform. There is a set curriculum upon which one builds upon basic skills. Consider reading and writting; while I am sure one could obtain some level without a set series of basics upon which to build, isn't it easier to first learn the letters, then the different things associated with those letters in sequence, then sentences and so on.............only after learning and building on the basics can one write, whether it be a simple sentence or a riveting novel. The basics do not limit ones writting, rather they free it. Also, once the basics are grasped they can be thrown away, consider how many professional writers fail to follow the rules of grammar. It is the same with mathematics, while some can do high level calculations by nature, most require a foundation on which to build. IMHO, particularly for those in a program like the DLP, a set of reference to build upon which is standardized across the board could be of value. Especially for those new to the system or those without someone to train with on a regular basis. In a sense this already exists with the various requirements needed to achieve the different levels. All I am saying is it may not be such a bad idea to say that level 1 has this and this and this is how we punch and generate power at this juncture. Once that idea is grasped than one must personalize it and make it their own. Sensitivity can not be learned by rote. Just mimicking the movements in Sticky Hands will not get you anywhere other than a robotic sequence in a set and predictable pattern. However, again just my opinion, when one first starts out and does A+B=C as a means of understanding the platform of Sticky Hands. One can learn much faster as they have that base upon which to build, then once they have that base they can begin expanding and writting their own interpretations. I am not saying that "playing" with someone will not allow you to grasp the sensitivity. Only that, unless you are very gifted, building that base first with a common denominator of movements may accelerate understanding and allow one to progress more quickly. Also, it allows for that standard for when and if you visit another school, at least they know where you are in terms of progress. However, like I said, the nonstandard approach is the more traditional way and does work, just may take a little longer, imho.
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Thank you Dave!That was a very thought provoking discourse.
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Hello Art,Well, not so sure I have anything to offer, but I will talk to Derric when I see him next. I think that when people already experienced come to the art then they are able to adapt and learn with minimal structure. However, it is always nice to have some standards. Think of it this way, you can navigate from one point to another with only a compass to guide you. But, isn't it a lot easier if you have both a compass and a map?
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Hello Tim,I hope I do not come across as criticizing the current program, nor like I am trying to reinvent the wheel. As I have said, I am new to AKTS and certainly need to develop a foundation in order to developer any skill whatsoever. In Wing Chun there are many who follow the status quo and train the same way today as they did many years ago. There are others who embrace more modern training methods and intergrate other approaches into their own personal Wing Chun. Both are valid approaches and each has its strengths and weaknesses. One simply needs to keep an open mind. My desire for standardization is more for insuring a set skill level throughout as well as for marketability. I am sure that the programs for, Law Enforcement, for example, had specific goals and trained for those end results. Anyhow, I am here to learn and hopefully attain some small measure of skill.
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I still haven't figured out how to use the quoting stuff, so I'll have to do this manually.
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;D
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Naturally, the goal is to use the djurus, but the free-form expression allows for each individuals past training to find a useful application in play.When you watch Sigung Steve's sticking hands, you will see mostly djurus, but also a lot of the Shaolin animals and the Internal Taoist strikes as well ~ depending on who he is playing with and what he is trying to teach them.
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???Oh well, still can't figure out the quote dealie,
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Art and Tim,It seems I have much to learn ;D But that is a good thing!!I am currently taking the lazy approach, practicing Triangles and the first two stances, really haven't looked over Djuru Satu as I figured the footwork was more pressing at the moment. Art, you reference 13 stances, I thought there were five, again I have much to learn. I must admit after seeing Sigung Steve demonstrate some of the low stances I am of the mind that I will be hard pressed to do anything like them
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I'm convince that when I 'get older' I'll figure out all this quoting stuff. . .
Greetings Gentlemen,
I think that someone can achieve mastery by playing alone but it is much harder.
Agreed on it being harder.
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Oh, and Dave, the 13 stances are on the Streamside Legset on the Flash Page http://www.kuntaosilat.orgThe five stances is just the basic warm-up for OLD folks.
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Hello,Had the opportunity to work with Derric today. Got a glimpse of some of the sensitivity training. It seems to me that there are some drills built into the training to develope the necessary attributes for this aspect. I have a long way to go before I can offer anything, but it did get my mind working. I also had my eyes opened to some of the aspects of Triangle training which I had missed. I am about to roll out of my crib and start to crawl
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;DYou are a man of good humor Dave!Some come to American KunTao Silat so full of knowledge that they miss the elemental aspects that make it what it is.This is a collegiate caliber curriculum for most "masters" of martial arts.
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Rather than standardising sticking hands into set drills,how about simplifying it into it's component parts?For example,if one player has as small knife in the right hand and tries to cut/thrust,the other player(no knife)defends/deflects/angles/positions while maintaining constant contact with his left hand/arm.This would allow you to focus on one aspect (either attack or defense) whilst retaining the free-form nature of the drill.Once you get comfortable with this you could play with different variations, say,right hand against right hand,right hand against both hands,knife in the left hand etc. until you get back to both hands against both hands either with or without knives.I've only just started to try this,so I don't know if it's good/bad/right/wrong or whatever 🙂just my 1.3 pence worth.(yes,2 cents at todays exchange rate 8))
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Hi Nelson,Good to hear from the UK!
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Hi Guru, Thanks for the link.I got to the podcast page,but the video wouldn't play.(maybe my connection isn't fast enough)However,I have been studying all the footage of sticking hands on the dvd's ,website and you tube.Coming from a jkd/kali background I have an understanding of sensitivity drills(mostly filipino),and how to break it down into a progressive structure to teach to beginners.However,this stuff is totally different!.While there is undoubtedly a whole host of techniques and movements involved,I am far too inexperienced in AKTS to see any way of structuring it from a technical point of view.As I see it(please correct me if I'm wrong) ,both players are attacking and defending simultaneously,with both hands,while trying to control the other player.So for me the main components would be attack,defence,control.As a beginner in the system with no immediate access to an instructor,the completely freestyle nature of the drill is a little overwhelming!I've been trying to work it out with a friend(an experienced martial artist),but it soon degenerates into chaos ;D.So my idea was to seperate the elements(of attack,defence and control) and focus on them individually.(until such time as they can be re-integrated)So one player attacks with one hand while the other player defends with one hand.Then we can build from there.Using a knife helps evasive body positioning.As i said,I've only just started to try this so I don't know if it will develop the right skills(and
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Hi Nelson,Yeah, I can't get it to play either;
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Hello,I think that the idea of breaking the drill into defensive and offensive components is an excellent starting point. The first drill is Dan Chi Sau or "Single Sticky Hands". While it is true that each person both attacks and defends, the basic movements are broken down into their simplest terms. It is a sensitivity drill after all. Adding the aspect of a knife to Sticky Hands makes it a much less forgiving environment. After all the slightest touch would and could result in a cut. Still, IMHO, if one limits the attacks and responses, in the beginning at least, then one will be able to develop the core attributes and build from there. At least this would or should provide a means of steady progression.
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OK, it's there now: http://kuntaosilat.org/FLV.htm . . . but the file is huge, so you'll probably have to pause it and allow the video to buffer before you start playing it.Chas is a wildman!
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Hello,I guess it goes to the intent of the training, what I mean is whether it is to be commercialized for the masses or done in a more intimate setting. Most traditional training in China was done with no real set pattern, it was what Sifu wanted to teach at that time. The thought was that the student would remain with the Sifu for life, or at least a very long time, so the Sifu could teach what he wanted how they wanted as the student would eventually be exposed to everything the art had to offer. Here in the West we seem to bounce around more and few stay the distance before venturing into something else. In addition to that is the fact that many today need to have some sort of recognition of their training and "accomplishments". Hence the addition of the belts etc. Of course, one needs a structured approach in order to have recognizable levels. Sticky Hands is found in several arts and is an excellent way to develop attributes. I believe that the highest form is always free and flowing. The goal is to react naturally and leave set patterns behind. The question on my mind is which is the best way to accomplish this goal. I always like to go back to the alphabet or mathematics. While the highest levels are freeflowing and can invoke much thought. The start of both is very basic and it is upon those basics that the more advanced is built. With so many training without access to a Guru or advanced partner, a basic structured drill at the beginning may open doors for more quicker advancement. I know myself, that Derric has corrected flaws in my stances and opened my eyes to some other possibilities. I can imagine the frustration of training a particular way only to find it was incorrect from the start. Besides, as Derric can tell you, years of training to do something one way and then trying to change is not easy as I am still very much back weighted.
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Well, from some of the conversations I've had with Sigung Steve, I can tell you that his first goal was to honor the commitment he made to the de Thouars Brothers, and Willem in particular, to spread the art all over the world.
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Hi Art,Perhaps "commercialization" was a poor choice of words. What I meant was the goal of spreading the art further and making it more accessible to others, although not necessarily with the goal of making money. I do think that to make the art more widespread, a structured approach is a good asset. Of course, that is just me and I have always been a bit thick headed
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Sounds good, from an organizational perspective, Dave.
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